February 14, 2024

Happy valentine's! We delayed the update so that Abe could finish off not one, but two new stories for you; Brave Moo World and Adonkalypse Then, which as you may have guessed is the sequel to Adonkalypse Now. As far as art goes, I have three images for you, two pinups and a new main gallery image, which is an illustration for Abe's Temple of Temptation, and was commissioned by the very cool Damo.

January 2, 2024

Happy first TF Tuesday of the year! I saved up for you so this is a big, juicy update: eight new pinups, one new fanart, and three new sequences (with six total images) are available for you on the art page.

December 6, 2023

Another decent-sized update for you this month with 6 new pinups and a new sequence (of which the first pic is older but the second one is fresh out of the art... oven...) on the art page. Depending on how busy we are over the holidays we might do a bonus holiday update like we did last year, but if not I hope everyone has a safe and happy rest of the year :)

November 7, 2023

As penance for not making it to the update last month, I have a big one for you this month - one new main gallery image, two new sequences, one fanart, and two new pinups. You can check that all out on the art page.

I also dropped a new book last month, my lasssst one for 2023, Disclosure, which is an illustrated story (written by Abe!) with 13 full page illustrations of alien abduct-y snakebabe shenanigans.

As for why we didn't update last month, and why we've been so busy, it was because me and Abe got married :) We've recieved lots of lovely wellwishes from many folks in the fandom (and outside of it, but if you're here... you're probably not outside of it lol) and we just wanted to say thanks again for everything. We're pretty psyched about the future! And we hope you are too :D

September 5, 2023

It's a short update this month since Abe and I have have a fair amount going on IRL! I've got one new piece of fanart in the gallery, for the roguelike deckbuilder you probably never expected to see TF drawn for, Slay the Spire. We both love StS so much we have a standing rule that neither of us is allowed to talk about it :P

In semi-related news I've had a lot of asks about comms so I just wanted to give folks a heads up that it's likely I'll be opening for my final batch of the year in late September. You can always check angrboda.cash, my commission site, for more info. Otherwise, see you in spooky season!

August 1, 2023

First of the month baby, and we are on time! We've also got both art and writing for you with this update. For art, I ended up adding on to the horse TF sequence I started in March that's set in the horny VR farm sim from my story Cash Cow (from Synthetic).

Abe has a new story for you, a fun little game show based romp called Change Your Answer. If you like classic, quippy Abe you're certainly getting that with a side of goo and rubber sharks in this one, lol.

Speaking of sharks, I finally finished Floatie Mode, my new pool toy TF comic. The reception so far has been awesome and folks have been really nice about it. Thank you so much to everyone who picked it up! I should hopefully have one more book for you this year that's significantly less fluffy, haha. I've got that in development now and I'm already psyched about it :D

July 11, 2023

A late update for you this month and a small one to boot - there's one new pic in the main gallery for you. Thanks for your patience while we've been out of town together for a bit taking care of some business. We also went to AC and did an after dark TF panel there with Zil from The TF Tuesday Podcast. Assuming the recording turns out okay it should be available as an episode in the future once Zil comes back from a well deserved season break (hosting and editing a podcast is a huge amount of work as we well know, lol). It was a very fun time and we were lucky enough to get to meet lots of cool people both at the panel and at the con in general. To everyone we got to hang out with, thanks again for making it such an awesome experience. AC is my favorite con these days and I've been to... plenty, because I'm old, lmao.

I'm still working on the comic I mentioned in the last update - it's a 15(ish) page sequel to Pool Shark that's taking me a while because summer has been surprisingly packed and also because it's 2 characters for the whole thing. If you like the idea of a pool toy who is usually human getting teased until she turns another girl into a toy (sexily), keep an eye out. I should have more info soon!

June 6, 2023

A big update for you patient folks on the art side, with 23 pinups in the relevant section of the gallery page that are new to the site (and about half of them new to any of my galleries). Now that I'm done with my spring comms I'm working on a new comic. Home Maid gave me a lot of confidence to take another crack at a longer form comic, so this one is something... seasonally appropriate for summer. ;p I'll have more details about that and a release date for you soon!

On Abe's side, there's the guest story he put together for the TF Anthology book Shifts From The Shelves 2 - Alien Archeology. This one comes with 3 images made by Jill The Succubus, so check it out if you need more motivation to pick up that book!

May 2, 2023

Just a quick update this time, with a new-to-the-site story in Abe's On Were-Creatures series - Interview With a Were-donkey. Unlike the academic study-type pieces of the rest of the series, this is a more direct story. Plus it has actual porn, which is nice.

We're getting a lot of work done outside the site currently, so we should be on track for a big update next month. Thanks for bearing with us everyone!

April 6, 2023

7 new pinups have been added to the gallery page.

March 7, 2023

I have 3 new main gallery pics for you, one of which is making its way up here before I upload it anywhere else. One (the catgirl) is the back cover illo I did for the TF tabletop RPG To Change. One is a valentine's themed bonus image of the characters from Sworn to the Dragon. The other is athe start of a horse/centuar sequence that I have no idea if I'm going to finish in the universe of the story Cash Cow from Synthetic. There's also a lovely guest art from CobaltK. Wow, that was a lot of links!

On the writing side there's two stories. First and newest is The Black Cat Club 'verse tale The Longest Flight, which is something of a sequel to The Longest Busride. Then we have the ol' classic Home Maid, the original story which inspired my recent comic release of the same name which is the longest porn comic I've ever done! People have been very kind about it, which rules. Thank you!

February 8, 2023

I only have 1 new pic for you in the main gallery this update because I've been busting my butt on the next book - a full length comic remix of one of my favorite old school latexification stories from Abe - Home Maid. I should have a release date nailed down soon, I'll post more about it when I can! In the mean time I've posted a couple of WIPs on my mastodon. You can find/friend/reach me here: https://mastodon.social/@angrboda

January 3, 2023

Happy New Year! Given the update we already did recently, this month is a smaller one. We've got 1 new sketch in the gallery, and Abe has finished his On Were-Creatures series with 2 more entries on the story page.

December 20, 2022

Happy Holidays! In celebration of the season we have a bonus update for you with both art and writing. In the gallery, there's 2 images in the main section including an illo for Abe's story The Princess and the Rat and 14 new sketches.

Abe has a new story series with two entries so far up in his section. You can check out parts one and two of On Were-Creatures on the Stories page.

December 6, 2022

This update is actually on time, and it's huge! There's 18 new sketches and a fanart in the gallery for your viewing enjoyment.

November 1, 2022

Sorry for the lack of updates recently, we've been dealing with a lot of travel and other life stuff. But on the upside, we've got a big update this time!

On the art side, Ang has 5 sketches, 2 pinups and 1 main gallery image added to the site. Abe meanwhile has a story about a Paladin Princess and a wererat mercenary bridging their differences through the effective medium of TF sex, in The Princess and the Rat.

Finally, if you haven't already noticed, Ang has put out a sequel to Candybombed, continuing the tale of candyfox fun. It's 5.5k words of M/F, F/M/F and sex induced TF, with 10 full page illustrations (and 4 pages of bonus content). Check it out on itch.io, here!

August 19, 2022

I let myself be late this month because I served up a big free project at the end of July - if you haven't seen, I redid all the art for Candybombed and it's now up on itch.io for your downloading pleasure. The file you get there also includes all the old art and a bunch of other drawings in case you dug those. For the update I have 4 new pics, 3 in the main section and one in sketches. The main ones are 2 of my fave pages from Candybombed and a new illo of the character from Pool Shark, which I've permanently discounted to 5 bucks.

July 12, 2022

First off, thank you to everyone for the great reception of the new artbook I have on Itch, Domestic! As you can imagine, putting that out was a big push, but I'm really pleased and grateful for the response it's gotten. For the site update I have two new pics in the main gallery, both trades I did with other artists. One is a dinosaur TF for Monstrifex that is an alt of an image I did for their Shifts from the Shelves anthology, and the other is a piece I did for Wat of Marion from the Visual Novel Changeling Tale. I also added a new section of the art page at the bottom to feature art of my characters by other artists. Monstrifex's half of our trade is there.

Jun 14, 2022

We're a week delayed this month as I was in the air last Tuesday, wrapping up a visit with Abe. We do have both art and a story for you though! Two new pics in the gallery, one pinup and one fanart of an... old favorite TF, lol. The story is Abe's very indulgent Adonkalypse Now, which is a fluffier take on the theme of a TF outbreak (involving horny donkification, of course). I have one more thing I'd like to add, should get to that soon. I'll do an additional edit here once it's ready.

May 5, 2022

Sorry for skipping April, things got hectic and I didn't have much to add here. This update has 1 new pic in the main gallery and 1 new sequence (which is really just a new pic and an alt, but it's a complicated alt!) for Abe's Hard Reset. I wanted to add a new story illo but I'm running out of un-illustrated stories, lol. A good problem to have.

March 8, 2022

It's a small update this month, with 1 new pic in the main gallery - a gift I did for Abe's bday.

February 1, 2022

It's the year of the tig! Abe and I have both been busy with our normie day jobs, and I was worried I wouldn't have much for this update, but it turns out I have 11 new sketches in the gallery, which isn't bad! Abe, in turn, has a new one: One Long Night, a somewhat slow-burn tactile-focused reptile TF. Give it a read!

January 11, 2022

Happy New Year! Let's not focus on how wild it feels to be in 2022 somehow, and instead go straight into the update. We've both been alternating between being on holiday and extremely working our day jobs lately, so this month we have a delayed update just featuring a story from Abe. He's used the Sabrith & Tayelle characters again to make a more-comedy-than-horny post-TF story called Catch & Release. Hope folks are having a good year so far, and we'll catch you next month!

December 7, 2021

This update there's 2 new sequences and a continuation to a sequence up in the gallery, as well as 6 new sketches. I miiiight squeeze in another update later this month if I do something themed for the holiday, we'll see!

Abe has a short one for this update: Dealing With It, which is a spiritual sequel to Good Morning.

November 1, 2021

Ang here, making up for my lateness on this one (Abe had a story locked and loaded for the Halloween update so it's all on me and a solid week of debilitating migraines OTL) with a bunch of art and a gallery restructure. I added a fanart section w/ five pics that are new to the site (many of them updates or clean ups of older art that aren't online elsewhere). I also moved a bunch of images to the sequences section where it was appropriate, and added an old sequence (that I still like a bit) to the list. As far as completely new stuff, there's 3 pinups and 1 main gallery image, which is a follow up illo for Self Polination, from my book Bug Bites. Speaking of books, I have a new one out - Synthetic. Thank to everybody who bought it, I really appreciate it!

On the story side, Abe has a new one - a sequel to Easy Bake Coven from Experiments, which as a bonus for everyone out there is now totally free / pay what you want on itch. I have 2 new illustrations for the story, available on stories page and also under sequences in the gallery.

September 7, 2021

Coming to you hot this month from a surprisingly warm September. For the most part we've been busy with upcoming projects, but Ang has two new images this month, one sketch and one in the main gallery.

On Abe's side there's a new story with Subspace Shift. It's a spin on 'what if the future meant you could really explore your fantasies, even the wild ones like encouraging your girlfriend to turn into a living sex doll?'. Ang did a great illustration to go with it, so check it out if that sounds at all your speed!

August 3, 2021

We're back after a bit of a summer update break - things got busy with work (both the fun niche kind and the boring corporate kind), travel, and finishing Sworn to the Dragon, Ang's new book. If you like TF and you like dragons maybe check it out if you haven't already (huge TY to everyone who has, you're amazing).

Big art update this time with 1 main gallery image, 1 new sequence image, 1 sketch, and 17 pinups. There's also a new story for the month, another collaboration between Abe and Sabrith & Tayelle. This time they're running a clinic on how to be the best demon temptress you can be in Corruption 101. It's an illustrated story too, with 3 pictures by ShySiren. Enjoy!

May 4, 2021

A big gallery update this time with one new main gallery image (A bonus illo for Help! I'm Belcoming the Monster Class?! generously commisioned by DET) and 13 new pinups. Ang (writing about myself in the third person is weird) went through and redid the layout of the main gallery, so now those images should be in sequental order on both desktop and mobile. The images are sorted roughtly from most to least recent with sequences grouped together. The CW text for them is gone but if you hover you should now see the image description. I'd like to add that to the pinups as well but that's a pretty tall order so it will have to happen in a later update! Please let Ang or Abe know if you find any broken links.

April 6, 2021

Another month, another new book release! This time it's a multiple-path adventure book set in the Monster Manual universe, written by Abe and with illustrations from Ang. If you always wanted to get a particular type of ending from those old adventure books, check out the Temple of Temptation!

Other than that, Ang has a bunch of new images, with 10 sketches and 1 new image for the main gallery. The main gallery pic is for a seasonal egglaying rabbit TF story from last year, the vintage-themed "You Can Do it".

March 2, 2021

The biggest news this month is that Ang released Bug Bites, a new anthology of bug-themed TF! She did an amazing job on this one, so if you're at all intrigued by the concept, check it out!

Other than that, we've both been busy working on books, so for this month we've only got a relatively small update. There's one new pic in the main gallery and one in the sketches, and some back content from Abe in the stories section - How To Win Friends and Alienate People parts one and two.

February 2, 2021

Four new pics this update, two space symbiote-y pinups, and two main gallery images (one cow, one snake). Enjoy!

January 5, 2021

We made it into 2021! I accidentally typed the last two numbers backwards on the first go and had an existential crisis there for a sec, haha. But damn... time flies.

ANYWAY.

We have eight new pics for you this update to ring in the new year (2 main gallery, 5 pinups, and 1 sketch), and a festive story from Abe - Happy Goo Year, which is exactly what it says on the tin.

As always, but especially now, we hope you're safe, healthy, and on the upswing. Thanks for sticking with us!

December 1, 2020

A couple of new pinups and one new main gallery image for this update, an illustration of the latex mermaids from Abe's Black Cat Club stories.

November 10, 2020

4 new pics (2 in the main section and 2 pinups). One of them is a new illo for an old story - Abe's Home Maid. This update is lighter because a lot of our efforts this past month went towards finishing up Mark of the Worm, a new story anthology featuring two stories (one by each of us) and 12 story illustrations, w/ 3 additional pieces of bonus art along with the cover. If you like corruption, demon TF, animal TF, mental change, and all that good stuff, maybe check it out! If you do enjoy it, reviews and comments on Itch are greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!

October 7, 2020

A huge update - 6 new pics in the main gallery, 1 in sequences, and 17 in pinups. We also have a new story - The Challenge, which Abe wrote for Sabrith and Tayelle and I illustrated. It's a branching path story with 2 options for the first TF, so you can pick which path you like or read the whole thing. We had no September update because we were busy moving the site to a new host with new servers and had to do a bunch of work behind the scenes - the upshot of which is that the site should be significantly faster now and have less downtime. Let me know if you catch any issues, though.

August 4, 2020

Twelve new pics have been added to the pinup section of the art page. I hope you dig them!

July 14, 2020

Six pics this update: 4 pinups, 1 addition to a sequence, and 1 pic in the main part of the gallery, which is a story illo for Abe's new one, Help! My Girlfriend Has Paws Now?! . This story is a bonus for our most recent release, on itch, Help! I'm Becoming the Monster Class?!, but should be readable as a standalone. We wanted to make something to thank folks for supporting MonClass (it means a lot, honestly). See you in August!

June 22, 2020

Sorry for the lateness folks, that's my bad (this is Ang). I was working hard to get my new book out and wanted to have that set before updating. Took a little longer than I would have liked, but the update is done now! As a mea culpa, this update is big, with 24 new pics in the pinups section of my page. As far as stories go, we have a short but sweet on from Abe this time, Dairy Production (for somebody who's lactose intolerant, dude sure does love his dairy). We should be back to the scheduled update in July with a smaller one, hopefully! Thanks, folks!

May 5, 2020

Well, it has certainly been a month, and we're back with another update. There are 11 new pictures - including one that's an illustration of the story Graven Images by Devi Lacroix. Speaking of stories, there's two new ones by Abe this update, TF Club Part Two (finishing off Part One from last month), as well as the quick Easter(/bunny/egg)-themed story You can Do it.

Hope everyone is doing well, see you all for our next update at the beginning of June.

April 7, 2020

Nine new pictures this update - seven pinups, one addition to a sequence, and one main gallery image to go with Abe's new story TF Club, which is an ongoing (the current update brings you Part 1). Our next update will be on May 5th!

March 4, 2020

Another significant update this time, with 7 new pics (five pinups and a sequence), and a new story - Cum One, Cum All, which is about as subtle as it sounds. It is illustrated though, as a wonderful birthday present from Angrboda to me.

Also, an announcement here - we're officially switching to a monthly update schedule, rolling out new content on the first Tuesday of each month. We haven't made our target of weekly updates in a while, although in our defence, that target was a lot more achieveable back when we were just posting a thing or two to Tumblr (RIP). Changing to monthly updates means we can be sure there's a load of good stuff to put on display each time, and you'll also know when to check the site for new content. Thanks for bearing with us, and thanks again to everyone who picked up Pool Shark last month. See you again on the 7th of April!

January 24, 2020

A huge update after a bit of a break (sorry, that's on me!) with 37 new pics (no, that's not a typo) and 2 new stories - Hard Reset for the synthetic fans in the house, and True Love's Glamour for your tender lesbian monstergirl needs. One of the pics in the update is a story illo for TLG, and another one is a commissioned illo for Devi LaCroix's The Mortal Coil which you can read on their website at that link. I also updated the story page and index pages with links to the latest pay thing, Pool Shark, which if you like squeaky stuff you should check out, if you haven't.

I'm trying to figure out an update schedule for the site that makes sense for Abe and I - we're headed out of town together for a bit so we're gonna get that figured out then. Behave yourselves while we're gone! ;)

November 12, 2019

A big art update this week with a new section of the art page, TF pinups, to feature a new type of comm I occasionally offer. There's 6 of these, 2 new main gallery images, and one new sketch that was only ever posted to my Twitter.

Also a big update on the site itself, with the book catalogue moving to its own page (check it out here) to free up the index page from having to load all the itch widgets and make the site experience smoother. The index will still always feature our 1 most recent book, but now it doesn't have to load more than a dozen iframes and you can get to clickin faster. This should really improve the experience on mobile, hopefully!


October 29, 2019

Something new from Abe this week, a Black Cat Club snake story best categorised as "porn?" Check out BCC: A Farewell to Legs if you're curious!


October 12, 2019

A quick extra update to announce that Abe's latest story anthology has been released! Check out Celestial Bodies on the store page for more info.


October 10, 2019

A big art update after the break - 16 new pics have been added to the gallery (15 pinups and one main gallery image).


September 3, 2019

An update with additions to the story and art sections this time - 2 new pics in the gallery (in the main section, a pooltoy and a cowgirl TF) and Abe's newest short BCC: Kitty Stuff which is a little bit of chill self indulgence ;)


August 27, 2019

A huge update with 17 new pics added to the gallery. Four of them are in the large thumbnail section and 13 are in a new section to feature my pinup comms (this is the whole set from August). Enjoy!


August 6, 2019

Ang is back, baby. Two art updates this week - a 2 image dog girl TF sequence, and a porn of the Scavenger from the Zone series. I'm giving Abe a break since he's been holding down the fort solo for a while, and is working on his next anthology.


July 24, 2019

We're back from vacation, and Abe is extremely back on his bullshit with Adaptation Part Three, showing where the descent into alien compulsive indulgence ends up (well, in our worlds, at least). Thanks for bearing with us over the break, hopefully we'll have more for the site soon!


July 2, 2019

This week we have the second part of the story from last week, a return to alien lizard horniness with Adaptation Part Two. There will be a part three coming, but we're going to take a break from updating for the next few weeks, as both of us are going on holiday. If any of you are going to Anthrocon over the 4th of July weekend, catch us there, and come see our TF panel!


June 25, 2019

A brand new story this week, this time in a sci-fi setting. If a story of an explorer gradually turning into a perpetually horny alien lizard creature sounds good, well, firstly, welcome to exactly our target market, and secondly, you should probably check out Adaptation. There's a part two of this story still to come, where the explorer spreads the contagion to the rest of his crew, so stay tuned!


June 18, 2019

Something a bit different for the update this week, we're circling back to the story from the beginning of the month. Good Bad End now has 3 great pieces of art, drawn by Dabunnox and commissioned by Sab & Tay to show off the best parts of the story. Check them out in the Stories section!


June 11, 2019

Just a quick little update this time, as Ang has been busy at work and Abe has been mostly devoted to getting a new D&D campaign up and running. In the spirit of the latter though, he's written a very short story inspired by the character creation process, called, imaginatively enough, Character Creation. It's mostly just a fun little idea, and almost entirely safe for work, so hopefully folks will enjoy it!


June 5, 2019

Another gap in updates sorry, but there's something cool to show for it. Abe has been working on a collaboration with Sabrith & Tayelle, who if you've looked at TF art anywhere on the internet you've surely heard of by now. It's going to have art from another artist later, but for now we're happy to present this story of Sab & Tay celebrating their anniversary in their own special way - Good Bad End


May 14, 2019

One new story this week, with two of the women from Best In Life returning because hey, it turns out chill women who are down to fuck and TF are handy characters to have around for this site. So if you want to see how characters like that have fun, improve their relationship and solve arguments, check out The Duel.


May 7, 2019

Sorry about the hiatus everyone, a combination of work, travel, and travel for work kept us all busy these past few weeks. Abe is back now though with the final part of his latest, extremely-in-his-wheelhouse series, Hired Sword Part Three. Enjoy!


April 17, 2019

As promised/threatened, this week Abe continues last week's story with Hired Sword Part Two. Stay tuned for the concluding Part Three, hopefully due by the end of the month!


April 9, 2019

This week we have both a new story from Abe, and a fantastic illustration from Ang to go with it. If last week Abe was leaning into his jokey nerdiness, this week he's back to leaning hard into his other bullshit, with the goo-TF/girl-growing-a-dick story, Hired Sword.


April 2, 2019

One more new short story this week, and this one is... a one. It's a new story from Abe, aiming for the intersection of funny, nerdy and horny, presumably in the spirit of April Fool's Day. If you like the idea of a short story based on both a Conan RPG and a joke, then go ahead and check out Best In Life.


March 26, 2019

Back to Tuesday updates! As we're still recovering from our FE trip we just have one new piece. This time it's a considerably longer story from Fuego, complete with commissioned illustrations. If you like her more intense, humiliation and feral-focussed TFs, then there's a good chance you'll like Broken and Entered.


March 21, 2019

After another break due to us all going to FE, we're returning with a fresh batch of content. First, there's the seasonally appropriate Trifeggta, a set of 3 stories newly uploaded to the site that focus on Easter and egglaying (with one of the stories even having two pictures from Ang). Secondly, we have guest content from Fuego, who specialises in more intense, feral-leaning TF stories. She's given us two short stories to upload, which were written while we were all hanging out at FE - A Game of Chicken and Doggone.


February 28, 2019

A little late this week because life got in the way, but we have both a story and a corresponding illo. Abe built off of the short last week and completely crushed it with the fantastic and brutally hot BCC: Parklife.


February 19, 2019

Coming back strong with two new full images in the gallery, and a new very short BCC story snippet (more of a tease, really) called Going For a Walk.


February 12, 2019

Sorry for the temporary downtime last week, folks; my host was having issues with their data center. Now that we can update again, we're back with 1 new image and a new story based on it, called Vacation.


January 15, 2019

Small update this time: 2 new-to-the-internet sketches and one new-to-the-internet story, BCC: The Cat Comes Back. This is our last update for a bit as we're heading overseas together for a couple weeks to recharge. We'll be back in February with (hopefully) lots of new hotness. Untill then, enjoy!


January 8, 2019

This time there's art and writing, and it's both new! Abe has a new write-up / primer / intro to the world of the Black Cat Club available on the story page, and has added a story from the BCC back catalogue as well, the aptly-titled Welcome. I have three new pics added to the gallery, one of which is brand new to the internet (a cowgirl TF, which I realize I'm doing a lot lately, but like... cows are good... okay?).


January 1, 2019

Happy New Year! Abe wrote a brand new short story, called Relax which has been added to the story archive. No new art this time because the holidays were busy, but there should be some new things for the gallery in the next update.


December 18, 2018

Added two stories - one brand new one (Fantasy) and a Black Cat Club classic (The Longest Busride). Added 5 pics to the main gallery including 1 completely new one to go with Fantasy, as well as 4 sketches from my Tumblr in a new section at the bottom of the gallery.


December 11, 2018

Five stories added from the backlog (Dairy Day Spa, Good Morning, Easy Tiger, Skaven Recruitment, and BCC: Cow Party) and one new story (Tomb Drider) that's here before coming to FA. Tomb Drider also has brand new art to go with it in linked from the story description and in the art section.


December 9, 2018

Launched the site! Added the catalogue, stories and art pages, and the links page. More content will be available every Tuesday (time permitting!) - either new content or additions from our backlog, or both!